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I guess one thing that comes to my mind

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is the situation around the program

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office during those days I think the

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one-word description of what went on in

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that program office is the word tense

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everybody was getting tense if you stop

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and think of the reasons why look what

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we had we had a presidential commitment

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that had about five months to run out

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and we were gonna make it and they had

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the NASA prestige the total thing that

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they've been shooting for all this time

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the country was behind it everything was

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behind it and look what we had to work

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with a monstrous rocket this is 36

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stories tall it weighed six and a half

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million pounds you only had a thrust of

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those five engines those 51 engines of

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seven 1/2 million pounds which means it

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took off pretty slow all these things

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going on meant that there is an awful

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lot of parts million parts in that thing

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that could go wrong and everybody was

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tense besides that there's a lot of

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people involved in this thing if you go

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down through the contractor structure

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and the subcontractor structure where

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there's about 230,000 people involved

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Saturn 5 so there's a lot of people to

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to create problems or at least to

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identify them and so there's a lot of

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things going on all the time this is a

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time of soul-searching do we forget

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anything there's anything that we

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haven't thought of yet everybody was

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concerned with that then there are these

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inventors you know the guy that did the

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gyros said I invented this gyro seven

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years ago and what you think me able to

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do a new one you know with modern

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technology and of course you have to

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tell him no if you did everything in

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their new we never would launch this

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monstrous thing so with the size of the

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project the number of people involved a

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very tense situation that we had there's

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no question but what there was a pretty

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tense office around there all the time

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an interesting little story and that you

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mentioned

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run today I took over Saturn 5 he

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stopped me in the hall and he says Lee I

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think you and I ought to talk a minute

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about how we're gonna work together and

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I thought oh I wonder what this is going

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to be he says there seems to be two

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sides of this thing there is the project

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side yours and there's a laboratory side

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and I've noticed that you have all the

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money because in those days the

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headquarter sent the money direct to the

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program manager they felt they had a

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little more control that way so he

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didn't get to see the money so he says I

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just thought you should know that from

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now on I'm on the laboratory side a mini

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argument it comes up and it's about the

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way it worked in other words he wanted

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to watch after the technical excellence

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and he left it to us to watch it worry

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about those other two features charisma

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and knowledge he obviously knew what he

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was talking about charisma

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I remember going I never had a party in

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my house one night and had von Braun

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coming to it we had tea I don't know 75

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people there the last one to arrive as

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usual was von Braun and the party was

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noisy and everybody was talking and as

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he walked in the door and everybody saw

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him the whole place fell silent waiting

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for the man to speak and and I think

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it's an undescribable thing about him

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but he commanded the presence of

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everybody wherever he wants he was as

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good as that he could change his ways in

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order to fit the situation in a

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delightful way one time I rode with him

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on the Gulf Stream out to California we

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were discussing Saturn 5 problems all

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the way out deep problems technical

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problems and as soon as we got in the

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flight pattern for landing and LA

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Airport I could see him change and began

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that they wouldn't listen to me more he

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was he was out of it and I didn't know

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why but as soon as he stepped out of the

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airplane this is when he was making the

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movie eyes upon the stars or something

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like that and when he got out of the

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airport there's a whole mob waiting for

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him for autographs and what-have-you he

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was already getting himself ready for

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that change

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he was about to have and he could do

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that not as well as anybody I knew he's

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you know out of all these problems that

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I pointed out to 230,000 people and so

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forth generate maybe there were only

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about four that we're filtering down to

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be concerned about about the time of the

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launch that came out of the board now

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the change board these were not really

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hardware problems as we'd had in the

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past we've treated a number of hardware

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problems but these were mostly systems

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problems these were problems like the

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pogo effect on the s1c stage a vibration

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on the s4 being staged a a kickback

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effect when the s2 and s4 be separated

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and then a lot of little fuel leaks and

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all these had been corrected to the best

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of our knowledge so what we had to watch

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for is watch him in flight we put an

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accumulator in there to correct the s-1

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see we increased the engine pressure to

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stop the vibration on s4 B and we shut

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down one engine early to stop the

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kickback and we had to wait to see if

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these are going to work now Sam Phillips

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hold changed meetings one month ahead

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and that was June the 14th and then he

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held another one at L minus 2 which was

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July the 14th or they do lie the 16th

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launch and we had everybody there I was

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there representing the launch vehicle

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George Lowell for the spacecraft patron

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for the monster facilities we had the

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doctor's error to speak about the health

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of the astronauts we had the astronaut

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office error we had the down range

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instrumentation people and we went over

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everything what you do then is separate

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out things that you think could happen

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during the countdown and then we had

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let's say they were proposing things

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guidance things and so forth and we had

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hundreds of people standing by here at

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Marshall in the what we called a

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communications room hundreds of people

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and suppose during the countdown we had

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a propulsion problem they call back up

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here and they say propulsion everybody

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on propulsion get in the room and then

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we detailed the problem and solve it

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right on the on the spot some of the

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best experts in the world and I'd like

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to say right here we had the best

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laboratories in the world at that time I

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don't think they've ever been matched

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before

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since they were good so I don't know of

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any problems we didn't solve during the

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countdown but then you go into that

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countdown that's a long nights work and

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you sweat out all the things that you

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turned down you sweat down everything

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that you can think of I went to a Life

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magazine party that night because I

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couldn't sleep anyway and went from

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there to the countdown at 11 p.m. you

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asked where I was and I was there till 8

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o'clock till the liftoff and by that

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time you're getting kind of tired but

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everything had gone pretty well and then

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we finally have that liftoff well this

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makes an interesting little story I

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watched the thing rise very very slowly

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as it does and finally picks up speed

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because it's burning about a railroad

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car full of fuel a minute and that

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lightens it up and it picks up at speed

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but it finally dropped the s1c stage

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didn't have Koval we finally dropped the

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s to stage we didn't have a separation

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problem

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the s4 be burned then and it did not

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vibrate so everything was feeling pretty

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darn good and finally the Saturn's work

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was done it was on its way we've done

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all we could do and if you can imagine

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that I was exhausted I remember this is

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just a little side story but I remember

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turning away from the big window that

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was right there and leaning my hands on

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the desk feeling totally exhausted and

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about that time astronaut Frank Borman

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was escorting the vice president United

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States and as he came by me I guess he

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meant it to be congratulations he gave

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me a nice swift shot in the small of the

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back at the point it kind of makes you

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mad and I spun around I was going to

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tell somebody something and there are my

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nose was right up against the vice

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president itíd states so he says very

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nice shot and walked on but that's a

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that's where I was and that was a mighty

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well first we shouldn't say it or no

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computers right across from the

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headquarters building dr. holsters

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computer lab had a computer in there

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that took up the whole building

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I imagine that whole computer today

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could go in a half a room but anyway

216
00:09:02,590 --> 00:09:01,100
there was a lot of central computing

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00:09:04,210 --> 00:09:02,600
down but you didn't see a computer on

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everybody's desk nobody even thought of

219
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such things what held it together

220
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no von Braun for one thing he's a

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cohesive type I mean he makes people

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work together and like to want to work

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together and the other thing I think is

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is a number of meetings that we all had

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to try to make sure we understood each

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other but I guess I was speaking of all

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the problems that might come up know

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about the time of Apollo 11 and might

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wonder how those were handled well those

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00:09:38,710 --> 00:09:36,649
are handled by a series of change boards

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there's the different levels of change

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boards if somebody wanted to make a

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change that they thought was absolutely

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necessary and that would usually

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originate from our laboratories are from

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the contractor they would start in on

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the contractors change board if the

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contractor signed off that that change

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had to be made in his opinion then it

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went to the local resident project

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office and they examined the change and

242
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decided we had to be made if after that

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they approved it it came up to the

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particular stage Chiefs for instance the

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s1c stage hadn't had a leader yes two

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stage had a leader yes for being the

247
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instrument unit so forth and who's ever

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stage this was in examined that same

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thing if they thought it had to be made

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then it was forward to me to my change

251
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Morton now this is a very tough job I

252
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would imagine that during the time I had

253
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Apollo we've had hundreds of changes

254
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reached my change board and I would say

255
00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:36,319
we approved less than half of them and

256
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worried like the dickens about the half

257
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he didn't approve because you never know

258
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but we had to wrestle with was about

259
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three variables one of them is this

260
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scheduling very very tight you can only

261
00:10:50,470 --> 00:10:48,319
make so many changes and live within it

262
00:10:51,939 --> 00:10:50,480
the next thing is a budget it didn't

263
00:10:53,889 --> 00:10:51,949
change you had to stay within your

264
00:10:55,049 --> 00:10:53,899
budget but the last thing and very

265
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important was it

266
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technical excellence that you had to

267
00:11:02,789 --> 00:10:59,309
have in this thing I would imagine that

268
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if time and money were not a factor in

269
00:11:06,199 --> 00:11:04,569
this thing I would probably like to have

270
00:11:09,119 --> 00:11:06,209
approved every change that I ever saw

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but after turning down more than half of

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them well I don't think you don't sweat

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during a countdown if one of those

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things comes up on us on a hold we'd

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have a lot of telecoms or telephone

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conversations with Philips in Washington

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and they had questions about house

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Saturn coming on this and that von Braun

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would drop in quite often because maybe

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one of his lab Chiefs has said I'm

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concerned about such-and-such and they'd

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tell him and he would come down and say

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what are we doing about this or are you

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concerned about this something like that

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so there's a lot of time spent that way

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then there's a lot of questions coming

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up from the project's office than the

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program office we'd have little meetings

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and we had a boardroom where we try to

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keep a display of status of everything

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in that in that program we'd sit down

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with all of our key people all the stage

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managers and everybody else and discuss

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these things time and time again to see

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if there's anything had changed it's a

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busy place they had a team that worked

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together that whole team was used to

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working with John that's von Braun in

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Pina Monday and they had people around

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him of Americans that liked to work with

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him

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everybody was open I don't think anybody

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was trying to hide anything and I think

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it's just the people-to-people contact

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that once the Apollo was over the big

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job was over I didn't see that we were

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going to have anything like that in the

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future and some but I think we felt a

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great loss after the Apollo program

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because this was a thing we worked on

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for over 10 years and all the little

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Apollo was the little Saturn Saturn one

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Saturn 1b were all always leading up to

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it we knew that they were four so we've

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been working on this thing for over 10

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years and all of a sudden it's over even

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though we flew a number of flights up to

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the moon you could see the end of it

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coming and of course it's too expensive

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a vehicle just to fly it for fun so

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there was no other mission that that

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would serve very well it was a big

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drop-off and I think in spirit and

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what I wish I could do today or could

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have done a long time ago was somehow

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arrange that all these many hundreds of

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dedicated people could be better

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recognized and they were a few of us

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were well recognized I had two dinners

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at the White House and lots of medals

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and governors of Indiana Kentucky and

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Alabama but not very many got into our

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lap there are so many people that did so

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much I would like to take this

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opportunity to say that I certainly do

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express my thanks to thousands of people

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who worked so hard on that project and